Don't forget Joe Public

[LarryDavidJr]

Not to try and put flies in the ointment so to speak, but although starting up a dial up server would appear to be the easiest way to do it, changing the phone number that the TiVO dials is still going to be non-trivial for such a user, defeating the point of a dial up server in the first place? No? Unless you can easily change the dial up number from the menu, but I wasn't aware that you could.

I think that the only way you could get that to work is if you could persuade TiVO to hand over the dial up number they currently use to a user group? Either that or as to my other suggestion in seeing if they would do one last upgrade to enable changing these settings from the TiVO menu.

You are right to question who we are doing this for though, the way I see it, there are two things here to be achieved.

i) A service to provide the EPG data, all that is really needed for people who already have TurboNet cards or have the tech capacity to perform hacks.

ii) A replacement access method for 'Joe', to enable the TiVO to get to (i) with little to no tech knowledge.

So IMO it would make sense to start on (i) as (ii) is an 'additional add-on'.

I have been thinking about (ii) and it should be 'easy' (please note the quotes!) to do with a modem cable to the modem in a PC and some PC based software to talk to whatever the service becomes.

When I get 5 minutes I'll knock up a diagram of how I see it (software wise).

[Kitschcamppalace]

Its not just a telephone number it connects to, it is an ISP, and it connects to a specific IP address on the Internet. It doesn't do DNS lookups, the ip address is hardcoded. That ip address at least has to be changed.

So unless someone can set up a bank of modems on the same number as currently used, and run a fake Internet....

Some hacking *is* going to be required. There is no way round that. At the very least a hard disc is going to have to be replaced as the easiest workaround for end users.

A totally transparent swap over is next to impossible, because there will also be issues with series ids, actor ids, etc that need to be regenerated.

[Tcm2007]

Remember, non techies will dump their TiVos on June 2nd, so there's a real time pressure or they'll all switch.

[FliesOpen]

I think you're all getting a bit ahead of things. We haven't got a working way of getting guide data AT ALL at the moment - we have a METHOD which we have to adapt.

Once we can hackily get EPG data accepted by the TiVo, we can look at how we automate the hacky bit.

Once we have people gathering EPG in a reasonably unmanned way, we can start looking at what needs to be done for "Joe".


You're starting at the wrong end!

[LarryDavidJr]

I think you're all getting a bit ahead of things. We haven't got a working way of getting guide data AT ALL at the moment - we have a METHOD which we have to adapt.

Once we can hackily get EPG data accepted by the TiVo, we can look at how we automate the hacky bit.

Once we have people gathering EPG in a reasonably unmanned way, we can start looking at what needs to be done for "Joe".


You're starting at the wrong end!

This is still a point that needs discussion. There's no harm in throwing the ideas out there.

[Kitschcamppalace]

Once we have people gathering EPG in a reasonably unmanned way, we can start looking at what needs to be done for "Joe".

You're starting at the wrong end!

Exactly! Which is why I was saying we have to get the data stream etc right, which is what I'm working on at the moment. Once we have data, a way to sort data and improve it, and generate valid slices, THEN the automation process can start. Until then there is nothing to automate. It IS going to be very techie for a while.

Those than can help with the techie side, please look at the stuff starting to be posted.

[irrelevant]

changing the phone number that the TiVO dials is still going to be non-trivial for such a user, defeating the point of a dial up server in the first place? No? Unless you can easily change the dial up number from the menu, but I wasn't aware that you could.

I think that the only way you could get that to work is if you could persuade TiVO to hand over the dial up number they currently use to a user group?

There *is* a dial-prefix setting accessible via the normal menus. Depending on the length of number that can be put in here, it would be somewhere between awkward and easy to change the actual number dialed - If it currently dials 0800654321 (I have no idea what number it does call) then setting a prefix to say, 033334 would make it effectively dial 03333 408006, which is a number I could buy right now and have calls delivered to me via VoIP totally free.

Its not just a telephone number it connects to, it is an ISP, and it connects to a specific IP address on the Internet. It doesn't do DNS lookups, the ip address is hardcoded. That ip address at least has to be changed.

So unless someone can set up a bank of modems on the same number as currently used, and run a fake Internet....

[/quote]

That's actually fairly easy to achieve ... just have it dial into an isolated LAN, which either contains the servers we are using, sat on TiVo's IP addresses, or has a gateway device that will redirect attempted connections to those addresses to the real addresses on the internet. I have one of those already, a dedicated firewall box, going spare. In fact, I have enough kit knocking about that I could probably set up everything needed to do all that for one or two simultaneous users, anyway. (VoIP adapter->modems->terminal server->LAN->firewall->internet)

In fact, if anybody can get "iaxmodem" to answer non-fax incoming calls, or suggest an alternative, everything can be done in software and can just sit on a box in a hosting centre somewhere.

[Countryman]

There *is* a dial-prefix setting accessible via the normal menus. Depending on the length of number that can be put in here, it would be somewhere between awkward and easy to change the actual number dialed - If it currently dials 0800654321 (I have no idea what number it does call) then setting a prefix to say, 033334 would make it effectively dial 03333 408006, which is a number I could buy right now and have calls delivered to me via VoIP totally free.

I do like this idea if it is technically feasible. Perhaps someone who has already looked into this could pm you the phone number as a starter.

The fly in the ointment as I see it is how to reach all those TiVo users out there. The easiest way would, of course, be via the TiVo messages.

[LarryDavidJr]

That's actually fairly easy to achieve ... just have it dial into an isolated LAN, which either contains the servers we are using, sat on TiVo's IP addresses, or has a gateway device that will redirect attempted connections to those addresses to the real addresses on the internet. I have one of those already, a dedicated firewall box, going spare. In fact, I have enough kit knocking about that I could probably set up everything needed to do all that for one or two simultaneous users, anyway. (VoIP adapter->modems->terminal server->LAN->firewall->internet)

I was hoping that this IP would already be in the reserved local range somewhere, meaning that the whole solution could be software based on a local machine, connected via tivo modem to pc modem (using a configured incoming windows connection).

Does anyone have any experience of the IP (or IP's if it changes with updates) that are called. I read in another document that it communicates over http, ftp and ntp? (ntp to sync time I would guess, http and ftp exclusive to EPG and software updates? or is one a fallback?)

[spitfires]

- what is the aim of this exercise? To keep *our* TiVos running, or to keep *everybodies* TiVos running?

Yes we will never get 100% take-up and we shouldn't be aiming anywhere close. But what we should allow for is "inclusivity" - we should allow people the option to take the new service if they want (with the caveat that it might cost them £75 or whatever in hardware).

As I said before, we are different from the other guys (Oz/NZ/ZA/NL/CAN/etc) in that we have a customer base of Joes whereas they were solely techies.

We must give the Joes the possibility of taking the service if they choose, else we will be seen as elitist (which is something *I* never want!). Whether they do take the service or not is, of course, up to them.

[spitfires]

The dial-in numbers and the IP addresses are contained in /etc/tclientUK.conf

In *theory* we just need to change that file and the box will dial-up the new numbers.

Who's got a box that can try that?
- Edit the file & change the number to be your mobile
- Do a daily call
- See what CLI number you get on your mobile (it should be your home phone!)


If that works, then the follow-up plan would be to get TiVo Inc to update everybody's tclientUK.conf file on the 31st May as a parting gesture!

[Kitschcamppalace]

It's not quite that simple. Unless you get all he TMSIDs lined up, for example, everyone's season passes are going to break. It's not an easy swap. Suddenly Antiques Roadshow is actually a two thumbs up for Essex Babes... At the very least a new guided setup and clear database will be needed unless we are gods.

I don't want to be a pesimist, but we need to be realistic.

[irrelevant]

We must give the Joes the possibility of taking the service if they choose, else we will be seen as elitist (which is something *I* never want!). Whether they do take the service or not is, of course, up to them.

Would it be worthwhile trying to get some media coverage? "TiVo are closing their service, but a group of enthusiasts are pledging to continue it for all current users" or something, because there are already reports of people ditching their TiVos - the very people we are talking about here will not even think to look into the possibility of carrying on with the TiVo unless they are notified of the possibility via mainstream media coverage.

[spitfires]

I don't want to be a pesimist, but we need to be realistic.

Absolutely I agree. I was just answering the question about where the numbers/IPs are held.

It's *NOT* a simple case of just changing a phone number. But it may be a starting point. I just don't know how yet!

[mesaka]

Don't forget us non-uk based (but UK TV satellite using) Tivo-ites. If you use a 0800 number or similar we wil not be to access it I think?

Just a comment but the prefix number option in TiVo is already big enough to allow a whole new dial up number to be added. Its what I used to do before I fitted the cachecard. TBH I think both options - 'phone / internet - will be required for the average non-techie user.

I can't help much except as a test user and / or with a donation but if there are other non-techie issues I am wiling to do what I can.