Alpha Tester - Getting hideous reboots

[philg]

Interesting thread. I've had reboot problems in the past (with Tribune data) and had put it down to a bad bit of disc unluckily in MFS.

I much prefer that a channel without data is missing from the lineup completely so I'm really pleased that was done, rather than trying to add the 2-hr blocks placeholders. Those were only really ok on a channel that had temporarily stopped provided data to Tribune, but it's stupid if the channel never provided data IMHO. Running guided setup on a Sky lineup has always been a painful task when you get to the Channels I Receive screen; far too much dross channels that didn't provide data for 10 years. We'll have fewer channels in the lineup, faster indexing, smaller databases in MFS etc. All good.

But if a channel is "missing" does that also mean we can't schedule a manual recording?

If so, then this is a drastic step backwards IMHO

Is it really a big job to provide dummy "TBA" entries for any "mainstream" channels that are currently missing EPG data (like Eurosport......) please

[mrtickle]

Yes good point there - I realy meant the gazillion shopping channels etc that no-one in their right mind would want to set recordings for. And perhaps the Sky PPV movie channels can't be used with TiVo due to the PIN protection (unless you hack around with the PIN-enhanced no red dot script). I just really hate the fact that carefully going through that massive Channels screen takes up about 75% of the time to do a Guided Setup!

I didn't really mean that mainstream channels shouldn't have the blocks, they fall under my "temporarily without data" category but I didn't word it very well.

[IBP]

it's stupid if the channel never provided data IMHO. Running guided setup on a Sky lineup has always been a painful task when you get to the Channels I Receive screen; far too much dross channels that didn't provide data for 10 years. We'll have fewer channels in the lineup, faster indexing, smaller databases in MFS etc. All good.

Can you change channels with the tivo remote to a channel not in the guide?

[jrg]

Thats happens when you have no epg data or when it hasn't finished loading and indexing on the original system too!

I suppose that would make sense - as it would be where the 'current channel' bit of info goes, right at the top of the page.

I had a further reboot this evening, just after I moved around some SPs: it was a newly re-added 'manual entry' for BBC 4 (which I've been using for ages to work around my Sony STB issues) that I moved back to lowest priority. I've deleted it entirely and I'll see what happens next.

[poppadum]

it's stupid if the channel never provided data IMHO. Running guided setup on a Sky lineup has always been a painful task when you get to the Channels I Receive screen; far too much dross channels that didn't provide data for 10 years. We'll have fewer channels in the lineup, faster indexing, smaller databases in MFS etc. All good.

Can you change channels with the tivo remote to a channel not in the guide?

I thought you couldn't, which is why we made the decision to carry on doing it the official Tivo way and include the stations we don't have data for. But I just tried selecting 777 which has no station in the sky lineup, and tivo did send the remote codes to the STB. I also tried scheduling a couple of manual recordings on non-existant channels and tivo hasn't complained and has added them to the to do list.

To be honest I would prefer it if we didn't include all the stations that we will probably never get listings for (it would make maintaining the lineups a lot easier).

[mikerr]

If you plan on putting 1 or 2 hour placeholder data in, then keep them in the lineup,
otherwise lose them.

Without placeholders or data, I can't see any real benefit to having them there at all.

It will also make people assume data is supposed to be there IMO.

[mrtickle]

I thought you couldn't, which is why we made the decision to carry on doing it the official Tivo way and include the stations we don't have data for. But I just tried selecting 777 which has no station in the sky lineup, and tivo did send the remote codes to the STB. I also tried scheduling a couple of manual recordings on non-existant channels and tivo hasn't complained and has added them to the to do list.

Superb!

To be honest I would prefer it if we didn't include all the stations that we will probably never get listings for (it would make maintaining the lineups a lot easier).

Yep, agreed. And better for the users too - IMHO that screen in Guided Setup is probably the weakest part of the whole TiVo UI.

[spitfires]

Wouldn't dropping them from the lineup cause problems with a dual source setup though? E.g. the TiVo wouldn't know which IR code list to use if it doesn't know which source the "missing" channel is on?

[groovyclam]

Right - this is IMPORTANT - LISTEN UP ->

I am back after the weekend and the TiVo didn't reboot *at all* - it behaved perfectly even after the listings call. That is 48 hours of no reboots compared to me getting over 10 each evening/night.

This implies *strongly* to me that the problem was me choosing channels in my lineup that AltEPG had no programme records for ( I mean literally NOTHING as opposed to the generic 2-hour tribune programming block records ).

Tonight I am going to add back into my lineup the SKY channels that AltEPG carries no data for, and I suspect I will start getting the reboots again.

If this happens, then I think that proves conclusively that is the problem. If so then there are really only 2 options for the AltEPG team:

a) Remove channels from a provider lineup that AltEPG are not carrying programme data for [*]

or

b) Squirt generic programme records into channels that they have not got detailed listings for ( like Tribune used to do ).

---

[*] I have just done a test and one can set a manual recording for a channel number that is not in a lineup and TiVo will still happily send the "missing" channel number to the SKY box and then start the manual record so there is no problem other than an unknowing user might think they can not record from such channels because AltEPG does not list them in the lineup.

[spitfires]

[*] I have just done a test and one can set a manual recording for a channel number that is not in a lineup and TiVo will still happily send the "missing" channel number to the SKY box and then start the manual record so there is no problem

yes but what if you have a dual source setup - Freeview + Sky... if it's not in the AltEPG lineup at all, then which IR code does the TiVo transmit - the Panasonic (Sky) code for 123 or the Sony (Freeview) code for 123 ?

[mrtickle]

[*] I have just done a test and one can set a manual recording for a channel number that is not in a lineup and TiVo will still happily send the "missing" channel number to the SKY box and then start the manual record so there is no problem

yes but what if you have a dual source setup - Freeview + Sky... if it's not in the AltEPG lineup at all, then which IR code does the TiVo transmit - the Panasonic (Sky) code for 123 or the Sony (Freeview) code for 123 ?

It's all a bit hypothetical there! Can you give a real example of a channel that shows proper television programmes (ie one that you might realistically want to record from), with a number clash like that between the current lineups, that is currently placeholder blocks but would be removed? I don't think there's such a channel in the live Tribune data... I was talking about the shopping/ppv/adult channels that the AltEPG will probably never have listings for.

[spitfires]

ok to answer my own question - on the live TiVo if I enter 777 (which isn't in 'all channels') it sends it to the Sky box, if I enter 77 (similarly not in 'all channels') it sends it to the FV box.

If I enter 199 (a FV channel but not in 'all channels') it sends it to Sky.

So it seems if it's >101 it sends it to Sky.

However, if I enter 301 which is in 'all channels' 3 times but none of them checked as CIR

Code: Select all

301    SMOVPR    Sky Movies Premiere         3
301    SKYPRHD    Sky Movies Premiere HD    3
301    BBCIEXT    BBC Interactive Channel    5

it sends it to FV (the last one in the list of 3 - i.e. the biggest 'source' number?).

Is there something in the channel line-ups which says what its overall range of channel numbers is for each source?


So the upshot is there doesn't seem to be a problem with removing channels which have no data. (But only tested on a pukka TiVo image not on altEPG image).


@mrtickle -
My concern was if you want to select a channel which is not in any line-up since it has no alt epg data (and so has been removed) then will the TiVo send the correct code for the right box? How will it know that channel 32 is on FV if it has no epg data for it? It seems there's something in the source line-ups which tells it (subject to the 301 overlap just noted).

The biggest 'real-world' overlap of numbers will be the 700s which are Sky Box Office on Sky and radio channels on FV, however since these will probably have real epg data rather than place-holders I can't see a problem.

[philg]

....... then there are really only 2 options for the AltEPG team:

a) Remove channels from a provider lineup that AltEPG are not carrying programme data for [*]

or

b) Squirt generic programme records into channels that they have not got detailed listings for ( like Tribune used to do ).

Could I suggest THREE options...

a) Remove channels from a provider lineup that AltEPG are not carrying programme data for [*]

or

b) Squirt generic programme records into channels that they have not got detailed listings for ( like Tribune used to do ).

or

c) Remove channels (like the shopping channels) that really don't make sense to have guide data AND squirt generic programme records into other ("real") channels that they have not got detailed listings for ( like Tribune used to do ).

[mrtickle]

Yes (c) is more what I was advocating, with a tiny - miniscule - number falling into category (b) with hundreds of dross channels being removed.

@spitfires I understood what your concern was, but I don't think there are any real proper channels in the current lines which would have such a clash. Hence my specific question. I would like to know if you can point to a real example rather than a hypothetical . You'd need to find a channel which has placeholder data and is one which we're proposing to remove, yet convince us that you'd actually want to record a real programme from it and wouldn't be able to without the placeholders. Does that make sense (apologies, it's quite late in the day so I don't know if I'm explaining it properly!)

Note: you can't properly record from the Sky PPV channels anyway and haven't been able to many for years, without the kludged version of the Red Dot script which also send your digibox 4-digit PIN 1 minute after the channel change. This is because many many films on those channels are PIN-protected and Sky's digibox software refuses to allow adult-only households to turn off PIN prompts. I have a few months free subs to those channels and got it working once, but it wasn't 100% reliable. The timing of the digibox's PIN prompt wasn't predictable enough to work properly.

[spitfires]

You'd need to find a channel which has placeholder data and is one which we're proposing to remove, yet convince us that you'd actually want to record a real programme from it and wouldn't be able to without the placeholders. Does that make sense

I'm actuallly agreeing with you although perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well.

I don't think there are any actual examples where a channel with placeholder data cannot be removed. (i.e. there are no significant clashes).

My concern was this: if we remove say channel 36 (Create and Craft) from the FV channel line-up since we have no guide data for it, then can I still select it manually as (a) a channel to watch, (b) a channel to manually record ?

No prob with a single source setup but my concern was with a dual source setup - if the TiVo has no epg data for channel 36 then how does it know it's on the freeview set-top box and not on the Sky dodgybox??

If channel 36 is not in the line-up then what happens when (with a dual source setup) I enter "36" on the TiVo remote - do I get to watch Create and Craft?

The answer seems to be yes (although I have no idea why).