Community-sourced upgrade packages

[spitfires]

Since this is a community project should we offer community-sourced upgrade packages?

The likely scenario is that most people (certainly the non techys) will want to buy a new pre-imaged disc - should the community project offer upgrade packages?

At cost (since our ethos is to keep TiVos working rather than make a profit out of the new epg)?

[gcobb]

I would be happy to leave that to the small number of commercial suppliers who have been helping the Tivo community for several years by making spares available. I think it is in our interests to encourage them to continue to do that by using their products and services, at reasonable prices.

And, as this forum is kindly hosted by one such supplier, who has taken a very active role in the project, I do not think it would be appropriate to discuss bypassing them on this forum (just like we never discussed bypassing the Tivo service on the Tivo community forum)!

[spitfires]

In which case perhaps this is the wrong venue to host this forum then? It was setup for expediency but seeing as we are officially a "no-sale" project perhaps the time has come to move it to a totally independent location? (I exclude altepg.com in that since that domain is owned and operated by the same person who owns this website.)

We are leaving ourselves open to accusations of conflict of interest all the time our devoutly not-for-profit project is hosted on a commercial-associated website.

[healeydave]

I would be happy to leave that to the small number of commercial suppliers who have been helping the Tivo community for several years by making spares available. I think it is in our interests to encourage them to continue to do that by using their products and services, at reasonable prices.

And, as this forum is kindly hosted by one such supplier, who has taken a very active role in the project, I do not think it would be appropriate to discuss bypassing them on this forum (just like we never discussed bypassing the Tivo service on the Tivo community forum)!

Thank you Graham,

I appreciate the backing and I hope most other users feel the same way as yourself.

Just to make everyone aware, I took personal issue with some of the things that spitfires has said and insinuated recently.
I tried to be fair and objective I emailed him personally.

He seems to have taken issue and I guess trying to clear the air has not worked hence this new thread.

I will repeat what I said to him:

In all the years I've been offering my services to tivo users, I've always offered them help to help themselves when it comes to building tivo disks etc and in certain circumstances the less tech savvy users have been able to buy a pre-configured solution for which they are usually grateful for that option.

I have spent many hours on this project over the last 2 months with the other members of the team, dedicated resources, utilised contacts made over the years and yes I have a tivo related business.
Support has been great and I believe on the whole most users would not begrudge me any business related to the project that might be gleamed from the odd disk build, spare part or accessory sold.

No-one is ever forced to buy from tivoland and with this being a hobbyist type product, it is more common for people to DIY, so don't be fooled into thinking I am going to do very well out of this because as I've said before, if I was reliant on tivoland to make a living, I would have been out on the streets many years ago!

[Alek]

As I understand it, a disk image will be available FOC.

Anyone not confident in their abilities can buy a preconfigured disk.

I suppose there is nothing to stop someone making preconfigured disks and selling them for "cost"

But there are problems, firstly, what is cost ?

I have a friend who deals in used cars, to him cost is purchase price + any money spent to make the car ready for sale + £1500.

Anything he makes above that he calls profit.

Should someone decide to buy disks configure them and sell them for purchase price + p&p. What will they do when one turns up faulty.

Alek

[davidshack]

I would be happy to leave that to the small number of commercial suppliers who have been helping the Tivo community for several years by making spares available. I think it is in our interests to encourage them to continue to do that by using their products and services, at reasonable prices".

I feel the same way. On the (fortunately rare) occasions I've got too stuck to sort a TiVo problem myself (or with advice from the forum, thanks guys) I've found said suppliers really helpful "beyond the call of duty".

I have no connection with any such supplier, but do know there are all sorts of unquantifiable costs to running a support service, from the carrying of stock that doesn't sell to the hassle & cost of returning faulty disks; from bank & CC charges to payment disputes; from lengthy telephone or email support to petrol for journeys to the post (soon £8 a gallon?) Purchasers can change their mind, (innocently) cock things up, abuse the Distance Selling Act.

If there are enthusiasts out there who are prepared to take on producing and distributing upgrade packages at (below true) cost, then fine, let THEM provide that alternative. But let's not be dictating what everyone MUST do. There can be different "levels of service".

Look at getting Linux:
you can download a free image off the net, burn it to DVD yourself, load it to a hard drive & configure it: with help from a forum.
or you can pay (a modest amount) for a package which includes software, documents & support.



On another note, is it just me that's uncomfortable at people's tendency to expect "other people" to give them "something for nothing"? Free-riders? I see nothing wrong with paying/contributing something in return to avoid having to replace the TiVo box? It's not like suppliers are talking of "doing a micros**t" and charging £x00s for the software.

Already it seems we have the situation where a small number of people are working their nuts off to produce a solution, whilst most of us (myself included) largely sit by and let them get on with it.

Not to mention the mass of "non-techie" users out there who don't yet know of our existence? Who will no doubt "bitch" (as loudly as we all did) at having to alter their TiVo - except they'll be blaming/bitching (doubtless for hours) not at TiVo Inc but at the contactable forum members/suppliers and the cost (however small). Who, because they are paying, will expect a commercial level of customer service - and probably need it too (many may be elderly, without net or email).

[spitfires]

I tried to be fair and objective I emailed him personally.

He seems to have taken issue and I guess trying to clear the air has not worked hence this new thread.

I will repeat what I said to him:

Your definition of "fair" is canceling my posts and issuing me with a "formal warning" for you misinterpreting something I said!!

I'm sorry, I thought your issue was with alleged thread hi-jacking (hence a new thread), and you deleted my posts but then you are allowed to post your (misinterpreted) side of the story in isolation!

Since you have re-posted your canceled post then I am sure you will allow me to do the same. What I said was

I'm sure Dave's not doing this project for the profit at the end of it. [shock]

Rather than having one person making money out of thie "free" project, perhaps we ought to be selling discs and network cards as a project group?

For THAT (perhaps poorly worded post) I get a formal warning for questioning Dave's "business or integrity". That's fair is it?!! Heavy handed? Misunderstood? Come on!


Do you not think this a reasonable topic for discussion? It was YOU Dave after all who unilaterally and adamantly declared this would be a not-for-profit arrangement. Surely the discussion of whether we as a community, provide upgrades is an allowable topic!

I will state again what I stated in my Dave-deleted posts - I have no issue with anyone selling upgrade discs. That includes Tivoland. However we need to be aware that some people might see a conflict of interest between Dave being the Project Manager (and apparently sole judge of what can and can't be discussed here) and his commercial business of selling upgrades.

I might remind everyone that back in March we floated the idea of having "drop-in centres" where non-techy people could take their Tivos and have a "community friend" upgrade it for them. Are we now no longer allowed to discuss such things for fear they might impinge on Tivoland's business?!


Let's just get back to the original post shall we which was NOT about Dave selling discs! Should we as a community offer upgrades? Would that be the right thing for the community to do?

[irrelevant]

Spitfires.

I think you have brought up a fair point regarding conflicts of interest, albeit in a manner which has obviously caused some irritation on both sides. (I have seen the cancelled posts, thanks to my browser grabbing the RSS feed, and I think you did go a bit far in the messages subsequent to those you quoted.)

I think we owe Dave a lot of thanks, here, both for hosting the forum in the first place, and taking the lead in getting the new EPG off the ground - he has been invaluable in co-ordinating the various contributors and making sure things happen. We have needed this leadership, especially given the short timeframe we had for getting something working.

Yes, he runs a website that sells and supports TiVo upgrades, but I don't for a moment believe that he makes any significant money out of it. The number of TiVo users in the UK is comparatively small, and many of those will be capable of doing their own thing. And how often will the remainder need a hard disc upgrade? David's comparison to Linux is fair - you have the choice of downloading it for free or buying something that comes with support, but Dave isn't Red Hat; he's more the hobbiest that you seem to be trying to promote, just with a nice website to front it.

In any case, back to my point. I think the priority at present has to be to get the service itself up and running without any of this bickering. We don't want to annoy any other contributors to the point of their giving up. Once things are settled, then I do feel that there is a case for creating some form of independent organisation to take over the running, and I fully expect Dave to stay involved, as e.g. chairman, however that's something to be decided later. Let's concentrate on getting a working service, getting the message out there to the existing TiVo users that don't know about us, and just having FUN with it. Please.

[spitfires]

Rob,
Ok in which case a simple, "no I don't think we should sell community-sourced upgrades" would have sufficed. It was not necessary to post in isolation one side of an argument which was removed and for which I received a personal & formal "board warning"! If you're going to cancel posts and issue warnings you can't then unilaterally re-post (in isolation) your riposte to the "offending" message!! That's just abuse of power.

I was simply trying to get Dave to agree that there might be a conflict of interest - it seems he just can't see it.

As for the time problem - well there were 66 people who offered to help in various ways but most have them have been sitting around waiting for something to do. Heck even *I* could set up a replacement forum (and host it) if one is needed.

Yes obviously everyone is going to be on Dave's side rather than mine - I expect that. But it wasn't me who blew this thing up! I was simply asking what I thought was a reasonable question! Dave misinterpreted it and now seems to be trying to turn it into a vendetta against me. As for threatening me with expulsion from the community project - I'm sorry I didn't realise the community had given him that unilateral power.

Now before anyone goes off half-cocked again, I am not denying or disparaging the amount of effort that some people have put in, and I have thanked Dave personally - but it seems he hasn't mentioned that.

[davidshack]

Yes obviously everyone is going to be on Dave's side rather than mine - I expect that.

Sides? Spitfires, I say you've been doing a great job & I've followed your (techie development) posts with appreciation and interest.

Communication 101: An acknowledged problem with emails/forums is that, unlike face to face, posts are submitted cold (then live for ever!) What I mean is that a message can be mis-interpreted (because the recipient is tired/busy/hassled; or because of some way the sender worded it). Face to face, you immediately see the other person's reaction and can modify your words accordingly. Posting can't do that & risks escalating until posts reach the "Nazi factor" ("that's the sort of way the Nazis would have behaved").

Hey guys, it's WOMEN that hold grudges forever, not men. Men admit "maybe we both messed up", go and have a beer & forget it. Life's too short & this is supposed to be interesting, challenging, fun.

You reckon you're pissed with each other? Just wait a couple of months until you've had a flood of miserly/ungrateful users who'll pick your brains, take your help, winge at TiVo Inc . . . and then NEVER click on any "donate" button! Then you can be pissed!



(I have no activity which asks people to pay/donate: but like most Brits believe in "fairness" - which sometimes does not sit well with the UK's current expectation of "something for nothing")

[retires to bomb shelter with tin hat]

[healeydave]

Dave misinterpreted it and now seems to be trying to turn it into a vendetta against me.

I have not said anything in relation to this issue since before Sunday evening when I tried to clear the air with you for a second time!
I really thought I would wake up this morning and find your had settled down about this, you certainly gave that impression last night but finding these latest messages suggests you just don't want to let it go!

I would like thank the other members of the development team and other forum users for their comments in my defence, so lets put this to bed shall we?

When this venture started out on this forum, a bunch of eager tivo enthusuates came together to see what they could accomplish in an effort to extend the life of uk tivo units.
As with all projects there was a bit of turmoil in the beginning, not really knowing where to start.
The action I took, which I thought was a sensible direction, was to call on acquaintances and friends made in the last 9 years I've been involved with Tivo.
I'd like to think that my support of the community as a whole during all this time had earned me some credibility and trust. When I say "community as a whole", that tag line above used to say "Supporting the UK & Australia since 2003" back from the days when I shipped PAL tuners over to Darren King, when Oz started out on their venture.

The moment my friends in Australia came together to help push this project forward and I was entrusted with their code and access to their servers, I took on a responsibility (like it or not) to protect that.
The only way I could see to proceed after that, was to choose (almost randomly) certain individual's that had offered up their services and expertise in certain area's to take on corresponding roles.
Unfortunately, there were more people with skills than roles and I felt a lot of people doing the same thing would just end up in a mess, so I chose sparsely and no doubt disappointed some forum members and for that I apologise!
Some people contributed early on and stood aside either due to work commitments or because they felt they had done as much as they could. Stephen for example was a great inspiration early on but advised he was unable to actively carry on.

As it turns out, I am extremely happy with the choices I made and the results those individuals including myself have achieved, they have all proactively got on with the job in hand and I believe we have rarely treaded on each other toes where parts of the project overlap and merge.

So the team responsible for the AltEPG project in case anyone has any doubt is "The Team" linked at the bottom of every page on this forum. That is a standard feature of the forum software and has been there since day one!
Its effectively a representation of moderators of which in turn is the group of people involved directly with the development of the project and those what we would call I guess consultants to the project.

I have not kept everything in-house, Tom has over-all responsibility of the AltEPG Server, it is located in a respectable data centre with only the team having access. The smaller stuff like the forum and the website are maintained by myself.
The responsibility I committed myself to, I take very seriously and I'm afraid that means in order to protect it the forum, website and server are going no-where!

If anyone has an issue with the way this project has and is evolving, I can only apologise and to quote one of the other members of the team, there's noting to stop anyone doing what we have done if they would prefer to see things run a different way!

To re-iterate our goals, the service we the team have developed into the AltEPG project will aim to provide all users that wish to use it, a free non-subscription equivalent to guide data service we lose in June as a result of Tivo Inc's disbandment of that service.
We will do our best to support and help users along the way, just like all the years the tivocommunity forum did which will enable the tech savvy users to make their own configurations.
I'm not going to apologise for having a side line business (one that existed long before this project) that helps supply parts and services to those perhaps less tech savvy users that are usually grateful for there being an option to buy a solution.
I'm not a charity and what little TiVo business there is these days only contributes towards keeping my technology and services like this running!

Thank you.

[randap]

TBH, and not wanting to fan any flames, as a 'simple' user, I just want the project to suceed. I am prepared to pay for the service, as I was before, so if someone happens to make money out of it, whether a team or an individual, then that just shows their entreprenurial skills.

Tivoland is a respected supplier (although I've not used him) so I'd rather buy off him, than not if that was the only option. As it happens, an option for free image will be available, that just makes it better for the competent. Whilst I'd be happy installing the free image, if I was to try Linux say, I'd much rather buy a commercial release than use a free one.

I don't mind where anything is hosted etc. I am just happy it exists. I'd even pay Virgin £10 per month if thay had a Series 1 solution

[Ark_42]

I've been watching this unfold with dismay, including post on forums where us ordinary folk can't reply.

Spitfire, why not set up your own forum and those that think this site is biased/being used for gain will follow you.
I suspect you haven't thought the "Community-sourced" idea through - who's going to put up the money for stock, who's going to do the work, who's going to deal with the returns, who's going to hold the money, what are you going to do with the "thousands " of profit, who'll deal with the taxman.
When the software is available you'll be able to all this yourself and compete with Dave ( and others ) if you wish - till then please just let the project roll peacefully to success - life ( well tivo's lifetime anyway ) is too short.

As an ordinary TiVo user I'd like to thank Dave for hosting this forum and all the team behind making this work.

Richard

[spitfires]

*sigh* One last time - I was only asking the question of whether we as a community should provide upgrades
- I wasn't saying it was necessarily a good idea
- I have no interest in selling the stuff myself
- I never said I objected to *anyone* selling upgrades themselves (be that tivoland, TC or uncle tom)
- I have no axe to grind with anyone who might be in said business
- I have never questioned the business ethics of anyone who might be in said business

This topic has not, to my knowledge been discussed. If it *has* been discussed then someone could simply say what the decision was and why.

I simply asked the community whether the community thought it was a good idea. Anything else is pure hyperbole.

If the community do not want to provide kit themselves then is the community happy to align itself with one specific supplier? Again THIS IS A QUESTION NOT A FREEKIN' ACCUSATION! Personally I don't care one way or another - no really I don't. Do you?

[ByTheCringe]

........The likely scenario is that most people (certainly the non techys) will want to buy a new pre-imaged disc .......

This thread starts with a statement which I hope is untrue. As a non-techy (although I have fitted a larger disk), I don't ideally want a solution that requires me to do anything more than follow some instructions that will let me dial up to a different phone number. If it is a number covered by my any-time free phone agreement, so much the better. If not, then I expect it will be well worth paying the call charges.

Looking at this forum, with only three weeks to go, I can't see a definite description of what the A-testers are testing. In other words, how the alternate EPG service will be provided. Could someone put up an announcement thread to make this clear, please?