Match of the Day

[gcobb]

Another in my occasional series of questions about how to handle particular series. As I don't watch football, I am interested in the views of those who do!

Match of the Day causes some problems in the new guide data. The source data is currently giving us three different program titles: Match of the Day, Match of the Day 2 and Match of the Day Live. The basic question is: do we leave this as three separate series or combine them into one (presumably called Match of the Day)?

In this case, unfortunately, the question is a bit more complicated. The data source gives us no episode information for MOTD or MOTD2 (the current MOTD Live does have an episode title of Championship Match). So, the database (and hence the Tivo) thinks that all episodes of MOTD are the same program (and all episodes of MOTD2 are the same program but a different one from MOTD). So, a SP for MOTD will record exactly one program (and so will an SP for MOTD2). If we merge the two, an SP for MOTD will still only record one program (which could be an MOTD or MOTD2 instance, if they are shown on the same channels).

I can't solve this episode problem for the moment (well, I could give every MOTD2 an episode name that is different from the episode name used for every MOTD). In the medium term (i.e. once the service is live) this can either be solved by volunteers manually assigning episode titles (crowdsourcing) or I am considering writing some code to allow me to assign episode names based on dates. For the moment, we are neither opening up the crowdsourcing interface (it exists, and is used heavily in Oz, but we have enough on our plate getting the basic service working first) nor am I making any non-critical code changes before we go live.

But if we want to merge the series, it is worth doing that before we go live, as it affects SPs people create (even though the SPs may not be very useful at the moment). So, your views on whether there should be one series or 3 are useful, even though there is a known problem with the episodes at the moment.

[tonywalk]

All three should remain separate IMHO particularly as MOTD 2 is shown on BBC2 normally.

The slight complication is that MOTD 2 is occasionally on BBC1.

I have 3 separate season passes for:
MOTD
MOTD2 on BBC2
MOTD2 on BBC1

An episodic title of just the date would seem to be the way to go and whilst I cannot actually confirm it until later (I'm actually on my dinner-hour at the mo believe it or not) I think that is how the Tribune data is shown.

I'll try and remember to have a quick shufty before I go to sleep later.

Regards,
Tony.

[millsb]

I agree they should be separate series. That's how the current TiVo service does it and it seems to work ok for me. As has been said previously, if anyone wants a quick way of recording all 3 they can use wish lists.

As for the episode issue, this is not urgent as the football season will be over by 31st May. However I don't think it is unique to MOTD. There are lots of weekly "current affairs" type broadcasts that don't contain episode information (Panorama and Question Time as a couple that come to mind). With the existing Tivo service it seems to me that what one does is to set up the SP for "first runs and repeats", then it doesn't matter whether there are episode numbers or not. The only issue then is when the same programme is actually repeated. This does occur, regularly, for MOTD - it is broadcast Saturday night (around 10:30) and then repeated early Sunday morning (~07:30). With the existing Tivo service it looks like the 2nd broadcast is designated a repeat (and indeed the Radio Times XML feed indicates this, with <previously-shown />). My Tivo only ever records one of these two - it usually records the Sat evening one, but sometimes chooses Sun morning instead if there's a record clash Sat eve - I think that's standard "smart" behaviour at the client end isn't it? Anyway I notice that with the current Altepg3/alpha set up if I ask for an SP for MOTD then for this coming weekend it wants to record both Sat and Sun versions. Is this simply because the test data doesn't indicate that one of them is a repeat?

Incidentally, as part of looking at this I've noticed that the data in the AltEPG3/Alpha isn't right for MOTD: the description of the programme for this weekend is wrong: the text describes the broadcast of 30th April. Similarly the MOTD2 description for Sunday (15th) is actually that for 1st May.

[gcobb]

I agree they should be separate series. That's how the current TiVo service does it and it seems to work ok for me. As has been said previously, if anyone wants a quick way of recording all 3 they can use wish lists.

Two votes is good enough for me, especially as that is the default behaviour

As for the episode issue, this is not urgent as the football season will be over by 31st May. However I don't think it is unique to MOTD. There are lots of weekly "current affairs" type broadcasts that don't contain episode information (Panorama and Question Time as a couple that come to mind).

Actually Panorama generally has episode titles (they are not announced straight away but they appear as it gets closer to the broadcast date). QT is a problem.

The Tivo doesn't actually care about episode titles or numbers -- it gets told in the slice whether programmes ("showings" in Tivo parlance) are for the same episode or different ones. However, the AltEPG software has to somehow work that out, and it does use episode names (and some other data like episode numbers) to work it out. And human beings can manually fix things (the "crowdsourcing" approach). There isn't a good automatic solution -- even assigning unnamed episodes an episode title based on the date of transmission doesn't help much as it means repeats are considered separate episodes.

In the medium term I am thinking of adding some code to deal with some special cases: there is existing code to manipulate titles for particular programmes, which can select programmes based on criteria including day of the week and I may add an option that says "use today's date" and another that says "use yesterday's date". That would let me deal with some common cases, including MOTD and its repeat (as long as the repeat structure remains as it is!).

With the existing Tivo service it seems to me that what one does is to set up the SP for "first runs and repeats", then it doesn't matter whether there are episode numbers or not. The only issue then is when the same programme is actually repeated. This does occur, regularly, for MOTD - it is broadcast Saturday night (around 10:30) and then repeated early Sunday morning (~07:30). With the existing Tivo service it looks like the 2nd broadcast is designated a repeat (and indeed the Radio Times XML feed indicates this, with <previously-shown />). My Tivo only ever records one of these two - it usually records the Sat evening one, but sometimes chooses Sun morning instead if there's a record clash Sat eve - I think that's standard "smart" behaviour at the client end isn't it? Anyway I notice that with the current Altepg3/alpha set up if I ask for an SP for MOTD then for this coming weekend it wants to record both Sat and Sun versions. Is this simply because the test data doesn't indicate that one of them is a repeat?

I think I understand all that except why it is trying to record both showings -- I need to look into that.

Incidentally, as part of looking at this I've noticed that the data in the AltEPG3/Alpha isn't right for MOTD: the description of the programme for this weekend is wrong: the text describes the broadcast of 30th April. Similarly the MOTD2 description for Sunday (15th) is actually that for 1st May.

That is because the AltEPG thinks these are all the same episode so it uses the description for the first one it saw. I suppose we could consider changing it so it overwrites the description but I would prefer to solve the episode problem.

[mrtickle]

Thankyou loads for asking these questions. I've been editing the guide data quite heavily on my own tivo. I used to post lots of corrections on the tivo forum with guide data errors, but got so fed up with them not fixing them I gave up and concentrated on fixing my own tivo's data.

I modified my tivoweb to add in code from an old tcl script called "EditTitle3" so that I could make corrections from within TiVoweb. Changing an Episode record changes all Showings of that Episode, which is what I want. Editing an upcoming recording that's generic changes the text that's used for every generic showing. Also, the "first run only" system was so flaky with inbuilt flaws (eg generic episodes are treated as First Runs regardless!) that I stopped using First Run SPs completely years ago, in favour of clearing ToDo using the Tracker module. This removes the requirement that the OAD is correct for new episodes in the data thus meaning more chance that it's recorded, whilst preventing Old Runs from being recorded.

My naming convention is:
(a) Dramas or other Episodic series, as much as possible I try to add the season/episode numbers into the episode title where it is worth knowing. I used to add them to the end of the title, but I also heavily use (a hacked version of) the excellent Tracker module, and I wanted to be able to sort by season/episode. So these now go to the start for sorting, and it looks neater. Examples:
Blue Bloods "(115) Dedication"
House "(721) Fix"
Frasier "(721) The Three Faces of Frasier"
Curb Your Enthusiasm "(309) Mary, Joseph and Larry"
How It's Made "(1605) Filigree Glass, Fish Food and Motor Homes"
The Apprentice "(703) Discount Buying for the Savoy"
Fringe "(318) Bloodline"

(b) series which don't have a title, but are transient/"current affairs", and so don't get episode titles. The key questions are "do I care what Season number it is?" or "Does it even have a Season number?". If not, it's in this category. Often they are repeated later the same day or on another channel, so it's well worth giving them titles for browsing "upcoming showings" lists etc. I use the date and am passionate about nice friendly readable date formats - it's my fault tivoweb/+ does all that uk date display checking . Examples:
The Daily Politics "17th May 2011"
Newsnight "19th May 2011"
Fifth Gear "20th May 2011"
(Fifth gear is disposable IMHO, however Top Gear I put in (a) above due to all the repeats on Dave)


(c) special cases. Quite a few of these as I developed things as I went along
Have I Got a Bit More News for You "13th May 2011 - Greg Wallace and John Torode"
(date from the main episode - host)

Mythbusters "[165] Carbonated Chaos"
(episode no from wikipedia with no attempt at season number; title) - this was after various online guides including Discovery USA renumbered ancient episodes so many times I threw in the towel!)

I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue "S11e03"
(I'd completely understand if you didn't provide radio data with the dual lineups etc)

In short, my ToDo list never contains a "no title". Ever! I would be happy to share my tivoweb but be warned it's a mash of lightn's last version, LJ's customisations and my own customisations on top of those. I've never had time to tidy things up enough or post to the main forum recently. (I fixed a few bugs in some modules which to my shame I haven't shared properly)

My naming system may not be the best obviously...

Apologies if I'm hijacking this thread, got a bit excited today with the catching up of this forum I've been doing. Please move this if there is a better place for it!

[mrtickle]

The only issue then is when the same programme is actually repeated. This does occur, regularly, for MOTD - it is broadcast Saturday night (around 10:30) and then repeated early Sunday morning (~07:30). With the existing Tivo service it looks like the 2nd broadcast is designated a repeat (and indeed the Radio Times XML feed indicates this, with <previously-shown />). My Tivo only ever records one of these two - it usually records the Sat evening one, but sometimes chooses Sun morning instead if there's a record clash Sat eve - I think that's standard "smart" behaviour at the client end isn't it?

It's "smart" behaviour (the 28-day rule) that only works with correct data driving it:

Code: Select all

No. Channel   Date      Time   TmsId      IsEp   Oiginal Air Date   1stRun   Episode title
  1 BBC1WSM    Sat 14th May   23:35   EP3277485498   True   Sat 14th May 2011   Yes   (no title)
  2 BBC1WSM    Sun 15th May   07:55   EP3277485498   True   Sat 14th May 2011   Yes   (no title)


These are two Showings of one Episode (TmsIds EP3277485498 is the Episode in this case). So the 28-day rule kicks in.

Anyway I notice that with the current Altepg3/alpha set up if I ask for an SP for MOTD then for this coming weekend it wants to record both Sat and Sun versions. Is this simply because the test data doesn't indicate that one of them is a repeat?

Sort of - other way around! There's never been anything in the tivo data to indicate that something is a repeat of something else. Rather, two timeslots show a duplicate record EP3277485498. This is actually a problem for anything creating new guide data, because if the 2nd showing "helpfully" changes the text, adding "(shown last Thursday on BBC2)" like the Radio Times does, then we are more likely to end up with a new record instead of re-using the existing one. Tribune had processes to catch those and re-use the first episode but they weren't always successful.

[poppadum]

The source data is currently giving us three different program titles: Match of the Day, Match of the Day 2 and Match of the Day Live. The basic question is: do we leave this as three separate series or combine them into one (presumably called Match of the Day)?

I'm in agreement with everyone else so far: they are different series so we should keep them separate in the database.

There isn't a good automatic solution -- even assigning unnamed episodes an episode title based on the date of transmission doesn't help much as it means repeats are considered separate episodes.

In the medium term I am thinking of adding some code to deal with some special cases: there is existing code to manipulate titles for particular programmes, which can select programmes based on criteria including day of the week and I may add an option that says "use today's date" and another that says "use yesterday's date". That would let me deal with some common cases, including MOTD and its repeat (as long as the repeat structure remains as it is!).

In the short term I could have a look at inserting some code to handle some special cases after we do the fetch but before we load the new listings into the database (similar to Oztivo's data augmentation phase). That should be lower risk than modifying the Altepg code itself, although in the longer term I agree that this kind of logic probably sits better in the database.

For Match of the Day, is the logic just:

Code: Select all

if showing is on Sunday, it's a repeat of Saturday
otherwise use the showing date as the episode title


Is it worth me looking at adding this capability now before we go live?

[poppadum]

In short, my ToDo list never contains a "no title". Ever! I would be happy to share my tivoweb but be warned it's a mash of lightn's last version, LJ's customisations and my own customisations on top of those. I've never had time to tidy things up enough or post to the main forum recently. (I fixed a few bugs in some modules which to my shame I haven't shared properly)

Hi Mr Tickle and welcome! Many thanks for documenting your system - your experience in episode naming will be very valuable I'm sure

Do you have an automated way of pulling your episode numbers/names from the various sources and inserting them into mfs? If not, even if you were to document the logic you use when doing it manually that would be really useful.

[mrtickle]

Nothing automated I'm afraid! I get season/episode numbers from the web - I used to use epguides.com a lot as they are nice clean pages but more recently I'll use the wikipedia lists. The formats are as above but it's hard to come up with a single global standard, so I decided not to try. I also thought 3 digits was ok (with the first for the season number and the other two for episode number) and it copes with most cases, but I got in a mess with Grand Designs when it reached season 10!

My manual process is to see what episode title is presented in the ToDo list, find that episode from whatever page on the web I've selected as the "master" reference for that programme, and then from that (hopefully the title matches) gets its true season/episode number and insert it at the start of the title in brackets.

Other series like "How It's Made" often have completely missing episode titles in the tivo data, but the synopsis lists the correct contents of that episode. So looking through the list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ho ... e_episodes) I put my own episode title in my tivo's data. As I'm mostly doing this so that the Tracker module will be able to purge these episodes from ToDo in the future(*), in this case I put the list of items in the title itself, eg "(1603) Cast Iron Cookware, Biodiesel, Clothes Hangers and Stone Wool Insulation". This is purely to make the Tracker module pages keep a fuller record of what I've seen.

So actually there is another category, I'll call it (d) Episode description in title. As well as How It's Made the other programme I do this for is "Would I Lie To You" eg "(103) Eamonn Holmes, Dara Ó Briain, Jimmy Carr and Ulrika Jonsson" and HIGNFY as well is in this format.

Also, there are some programmes in TiVo's data that are Episodic that don't need to be and actually cause problems. Points of View is one case. It's never repeated and never would be, but Tribune keep re-using the same TMSids over and over, so the Tracker module - let alone that, the 28 day rule - stops them being recorded. This is one of the hardest things to spot, something missing from ToDo - anyone reading the recording history from the tivo UI would quickly give up after wading through all the legitimate 28 day rule that are correctly not re-recorded, and spotting that there's one too many is needle in a haystack. So there is a case for saying it would cause less hassle if this, Newsnight, News etc were just generic.

(*) if you've never seen it before and have satellite/cable, I dare you to set a Wishlist for How It's Made and stand back to watch the ToDo list fill up

[healeydave]

Just my two penneth, where Season and Episode Numbers are concerned, I'd like to standardise on the S01E01 format that many other systems use, all my archived TV is stored in this format for accurate recognition by places like thetvdb.com etc.

[gcobb]

Is it worth me looking at adding this capability now before we go live?

As Brian said, for MOTD it probably isn't worth doing anything for now as the football season is about to end.

I am a bit more worried about how to deal with Question Time. And we need to check that for Panorama our process correctly handles the addition of episode titles into the data as the date approaches.

[tonywalk]

Just my two penneth, where Season and Episode Numbers are concerned, I'd like to standardise on the S01E01 format that many other systems use, all my archived TV is stored in this format for accurate recognition by places like thetvdb.com etc.

Agreed. I prefer to use lower case for the letters so the numbers stand out I.e.s02e12

Regards,
Tony.

[mrtickle]

Good idea about that season/episode naming. Hadn't thought of doing that. I agree and it's well established.

If the BBC is to be believed, "Homes under the Hammer" is currently well past 100 episodes in a single season (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s36b ... s/upcoming ) - this is a season which has taken many many mid-season breaks . Why they can't just start season 15 is beyond me; and I don't particular want 3-digit episode numbers anywhere. Those would have to be s14e108 etc

Apropos Question Time - looking back through tracker at what I've got saved I have used a few different conventions. The main problem is that the lineup of guests changes at the last minute and often isn't announced until the day of recording. So trying to get the guest list in the titles will be a losing battle. However there is always a guest who isn't a politician and I've used that before. And/or the location. Egs
26th Nov 2009 - Marcus Brigstocke
29th Oct 2009 - John Sergeant
1st Oct 2009 - David Starkey

Or, the person who stands out in some other way to identify the episode:
22nd Oct 2009 - Nick Griffin

But what may be easier is the fallback of using the known location which is always announced in plenty of time (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/q ... 117500.stm)
5th Nov 2009 - Reading
19th May 2011 - London village
26th May 2011 - Exeter

One more type of programme I've remembered - when The Daily Show was shown properly on More4, I used to set the episode title to the date of the USA broadcast (ie the previous day). The day of the week is frequently mentioned during the programme so no-one watching it a day late on More4 ought to be confused by that. Academic now of course . I use "Global Edition w/b Mon 9th May" for the weekly Global editions.