Open letter to Joshua Danovitz, GM/VP International TiVo

[LarryDavidJr]

Thought I'd put this here as it has nothing to do with the alternate EPG

Just to see if we can at least get some answers, I sent this open letter via Facebook to Joshuas personal profile (although it may well be corporately controlled), as he doesn't seem to be giving any answers on the TiVo blog.

I'm not holding my breath, but you never know, even if we just get some answers, it would be 'closure' in the terrible breakup of our TiVo relationship lol

Lets see if he replies.

Joshua,

You don't know me, but I suspect you already know what this message will be about.

I have been a loyal TiVO customer in the UK for a few years now, activley seeking out a box, even though they were discontinued, because I already knew that it was far superior to anything else on the market, and still is.

You must already know that dissatisfaction with TiVO's choice to cut the EPG service, which basically renders the series 1 units almost useless, is at a high level. The massive amount of comments in your blog and amount of aggrevied customers frequenting the TiVO forums shows you that you have chosen to simply turn your back on many loyal fans (of which in the UK you may need soon).

Regardless of all the arguments we have about exactly what is 'lifelong service', and the fact that half (49%) of the country cannot receive Virgin Media cable services, you have so far failed to actually answer the questions behind your reasoning for removing the service.

I would like therefore to ask you the following questions to which I, and other TiVO users would like a straight answer:

- Exactly whose decision was this to cut the service? TiVO? Was it part of your deal with Virgin Media? Is it down to BSkyB? Most people at the moment are assuming that its to do with your deal with Virgin, to try and push people that can get it onto the new TiVO box. Perhaps you can correct me?

- How did you come to this decision? Why now? Seems like strange timing, just as you launch a new product with a new partner? No?

- Did you ever consider that you could still make money from the S1 service? Many people, myself included, that have a lifetime subscription would be happy to start paying a nominal/reasonable sum to keep the service alive.

- As there is an active community of 'home brew' enthusiasts around the S1, did you consder perhaps releasing sections of the service to open source to allow the community to at least make it easier for the homebrew community to provide their own EPG service? What a great PR opportunity that would be!

As it stands this is a bit of a PR disaster for you, you were MUCH more likley to get more custom out of existing S1 owners if you didn't effectivley kill the box they already have, as now most people simply do not trust TiVO anymore and will be very unlikley to now spend out on the Virgin Media equipment.

So, I think I have put my points and questions reasonably and fairly. WIll you at least have the good manners to inform your very loyal S1 community the real reasons behind this?

Yours, a (still just about) loyal TiVO fan

[Alek]

I wouldn't even bother with them anymore.

As I said before, in a few months we are going to have a superior open source system run by the community.

Where can I find the middle finger emoticon.

Alek

[healeydave]

Where can I find the middle finger emoticon.

[Pete77]

I wouldn't even bother with them anymore.

As I said before, in a few months we are going to have a superior open source system run by the community.

Where can I find the middle finger emoticon.

Alek

Dave,

It seems you are off the hook as it was actually Alek who made this bold claim and not your good self.

A fairer assessment would have been "we reckon we can produce an Open Source alternative but we are going to have to work damn hard to do so and not all of the features you have traditionally been familiar with (eg OAD or year of film etc) will necessarily now be supported.

[Alek]

Fame at last.

I said it and I stand behind it.

Don't get me wrong, I have been running two completely unmodified tivos for years and had tivo kept the service going I would have continued for, who knows how long.

Tivo in their wisdom have decided to stop the service to "us". Rightly or wrongly.

Already, in just a few weeks we have a disk image available for no charge, which can be put on a gigantic hdd and give a brazillion hours of recording. It includes endpadding, tivoweb, telnet and stuff I don't even know what it's for.

A free epg which can be accessed either by net or dial up for a limited number of channels.

Bloody hell Pete, don't you think it's a fantastic achievement and it's only begun.


Alek

[Pete77]

Already, in just a few weeks we have a disk image available for no charge, which can be put on a gigantic hdd and give a brazillion hours of recording. It includes endpadding, tivoweb, telnet and stuff I don't even know what it's for.

Alternatively you could just add the number of one of the AltEPG servers to your dial prefix code and rerun Guided Setup if you want to carry on running these two Tivos at no additional cost after June 1st.

The option to add a gigantic hdd with a "brazillion hours of recording" has always been there but there is no need to do such a drive upgrade or even reimage your existing drives in order to switch over to the AltEPG. Ditto Tivoweb and network cards have been there all along to add to your Tivo if you had wanted to.

However I still haven't detected from your response in what respect you think the new EPG service is likely to be superior to the old one given that it will for instance lack the Original Air Date of the program or a star rating system for movies and all our existing thumbs set over many years will no longer influence future recordings.

I think you have possibly become confused between a decision to substantially upgrade your hardware with a larger hard drive and new network card as opposed to the facilities provided by the Tivo/Tribune EPG vs the AltEPG.

[healeydave]

Whilst it true, these circumstances may have pushed some people to find the benefits of various hacks and upgrades that were available in the past, there are certainly some tweaks in the altepg image that were not even part of mine or other suppliers builds previously.

In terms of the guide, its going to get really tedious and tiring if your going to mutter comparisons against the old guide that Tivo Inc paid thousands of dollars for all the time!

As stated in another thread, we agree with you, the alternative guide may not be as good, possibly ever, but when you compare the costs, I'm damn sure the old guide was not ten thousand dollars better than ours!

I can't help feeling that we'd have been better off starting Alpha testing some months after you'd had no data nag screens every time you hit a button on the tivo remote but somehow I'm pretty sure even that wouldn't have stopped the guide comparison moans!

Oh and P.S.
Moaning about the guide is not a means to get us to motivated to make changes and do things any quicker.
We are already motivated to do that, its just going to take time. If anything moaning or criticising it is more likely to have a detrimental affect on the teams motivation!

[Alek]

Pete.
I am not going to be drawn into an endless, pointless exchange with you.

If you would kindly cast your attention to my post. although I did not point it out in words of one syllable I was referring to the "system" not just the epg.

The epg is useless without the rest of the hardware and software and people to run it.

Maybe I am wrong but afaik tivo provided a 40gb hdd recorder and some mighty fancy software + an epg.

They didn't provide bigger hdds or tivoweb or any other hacks at any price.

The new system does and at a mighty attractive price.

Alek

[Pete77]

They didn't provide bigger hdds or tivoweb or any other hacks at any price.

The new system does and at a mighty attractive price.

No Tivo didn't officially provide these things but Tivoland, TC and the demised Tivoheaven have been doing all those things for the last several years and many people bought such upgrades once their Tivo was out of the 12 month manufacturer warranty. Nothing has changed in that regard as a result of the cessation of the Tivo EPG on 1st June and its replacement with the AltEPG. The AltEPG as most used by most existing Tivo owners (but just putting a new telephone number in the dial prefix menu) won't provide any new features. You are perhaps labouring under a misapprehension that you have to replace your hard drive anyway in order to use the AltEPG but this is not the case. All you have to do is enter a new phone number in an existing normally accessible customer menu on your Tivo and rerun Guided Setup.

If you reimage your hard drive or buy a new hard drive with the AltEPG image you will get additional features but by and large they are all features that have been have available for many years to anyone with an upgraded drive and/or network card with the existing Tribune EPG.

By contrast you are apparently seeing the demise of the existing Tivo EPG as a reason to convince yourself to buy a new hard drive or network card or perhaps still wrongly think you must buy these things to use the AltEPG but you could carry on with the AltEPG with your current machine in which case Endpad and so on are not added just by switching to the new EPG source. In fact the new EPG will have rather less information available for less days ahead than the existing one.

[Heuer]

In fact the new EPG will have rather less information available for less days ahead than the existing one.

Where on earth did that FACT come from?

[Pete77]

In fact the new EPG will have rather less information available for less days ahead than the existing one.

Where on earth did that FACT come from?

From some of the people responsible for producing the AltEPG in another thread here a few days ago. Their forum names here are poppadom and gcobb

The Tribune Tivo EPG has up to 21 days data on many of the non terrestrial satellite channels that plan their schedules long ahead like CBS Action. The AltEPG in current test mode has only 7 days data for all channel but is hoping to extend this in the end to up to 14 days on at least some of the channels. The source of the EPG for the Alt EPG project has less days advance data than the existing expensive paid service run by Tribune Media Services that will still continue to be the EPG source for the Virgin Media UK Tivo after June 1st (albeit with data in a somewhat different format to the feed for the S1 Tivo to meet the needs of the Tivo Premiere series of Tivo units). Why is any of this surprising. Obviously trying to get data for 21 days ahead is more difficult as the default EPG publication standard is only 7 days (eg by Sky or Radio Times).

Similarly the new EPG will not have Original Air Date (OAD) data and this will disable the First Run only functionality of Season Passes. This is not in dispute by those creating the AltEPG. It is also not disputed that none of your old thumbs settings will apply to those programs in the AltEPG because the AltEPG uses different program identifier codes. You will however be able to set thumbs again in the AltEPG although the extent to which they will lead to Suggestions or not is not yet fully known. The basis of the Suggestions with the AltEPG may be simpler than it was with the Tribune EPG with its rich Metadata that included a lnumber of genre codes for each program in the EPG. Suggestions definitely will still be made for programs you have previously thumbsed up based on my own testing so far.

Everyone myself included is of course extremely pleased that our Tivos will still be operational after June 1st compared to the alternative (that they would die on that date except for watching existing recordings) but I really do think that those of you who imagine it will be a better EPG than before are wearing Rose Tinted Spectacles. Much of the talk that facilities will be better with the new EPG comes only from the fact that some people who have never upgraded their Tivo hard drives in all these last several years are now thinking of buying commercially prepared larger hard drives from Tivoland or Tivocentrall to put in their machines with some hacks pre-installed. However these hacks have been available all along and there is no connection between them and switching over your data source to the AltEPG. You can switch to the AltEPG without upgrading your hard drive but if you do then you will not have EndPad or any other hack installed on the unit just as at present.

[Wistrel]

I for one, are more than happy that my Tivo will continue and having to restart my season passes, thumbs or whatever is a small price to pay and far better than having to lose the service altogether (it's about time I had a clear out anyway).
Hvaing reviewed (and tried) many options when cut-off was first announced (MCE, SageTV, BeyondTV and various linux offerings) the issue always seemed to be around a decent EPG with many requiring regular manual maintenance - the offering suggested here sounds vastly superior to any of these.
I am extremely grateful to all those putting their time into this project - Thanks guys.

One question - it has been mentioned that the AltEPG image has hacks installed - is there a list of these anywhere. I had originally planned to change the settings on my current unmodified Tivo, but it sounds like there are useful extras I coudl take advantage of - another bonus !

[Pete77]

One question - it has been mentioned that the AltEPG image has hacks installed - is there a list of these anywhere. I had originally planned to change the settings on my current unmodified Tivo, but it sounds like there are useful extras I coudl take advantage of - another bonus !

I certainly would also appreciate seeing a list of what hacks are part of the AltEPG image as the antiquity of the 2 x 250GB Samsung HA250JC drives on my main Tivo (six years old next month) and my wish to move on to recording everything in Mode 0 means that I probably will be acquiring a professional 1TB (or larger such as 1.5TB if available) upgrade drive with the AltEPG image and attendant hacks from one of the two main professional hard drive suppliers in due course.

Whilst I can see that any comment about the new EPG service here other than that its an absolutely superb and utterly spiffing effort chaps is going to bring the immediate response of "MOANER" from the volunteer team I think it is fair to point out that active members of the AltEPG team like Dave in effect do now actively want the Tribune supplied EPG service to close down as announced on June 1st because they have put in so much effort that the alternative of Tivo changing their mind is to them unthinkable at this stage. Also I think it is fair to say that both Tivoland and TC know that they will almost certainly enjoy an initial rush of hard drive upgrade sales business following the AltEPG switch as given the confidence that there is several more years of EPG to come and that by changing their hard drive they will not be infringing the terms of a now unilaterally cancelled by Tivo lifetime service agreement even those who have never ever upgraded their hard drive up to now may well take the plunge and do so.

Whilst I do agree that no one is going to get rich quick selling say 100 hard drive upgrades at say £40 profit per drive (after parts and postage) nonetheless it would be at least some adequate recompense for the considerable effort that one of the main professional hard drive upgrade suppliers has put in to bringing about the AltEPG project.

From my own point of view it would still be better if the official Tivo service continued after June 1st if Tivo changed their minds as then of all my current several thousand thumbs woulkd continue to be used in Suggestions and the 21 days of Tribune EPG data would carry on. However I fully accept that this is now probably very unlikely indeed to happen and that Dave and the rest of his colleagues have naturally had to proceed on the basis that Tivo will be turning of the EPG data tap for good to our UK S1 machines on June 1st 2011.

I would also like to say that aside from his clear and longstanding personal belief in the Tivo as a product that was several years ahead of its time compared to the competition that Dave's role as leading coordinator and hoster of the website for this AltEPG project is clearly a very smart move in marketing terms as time was when after the closure of Tivoheaven's drive upgrade service that most potential drive upgraders were only visiting the TC website. But now with most of us having only ever visited the Tivoland website a few times in our lives it is likely that I and most of the other regular Tivocommunity regulars will be coming to the Tivoland website instead of Tivocommunity on a fairly regular basis. That change in the previous status quo must surely be of significant benefit to the future prospects of the Tivoland Tivo upgrade service. A service that would otherwise simply have ceased to be with effect from June 2011.

[healeydave]

I think it is fair to point out that active members of the AltEPG team like Dave in effect do now actively want the Tribune supplied EPG service to close down as announced on June 1st because they have put in so much effort that the alternative of Tivo changing their mind is to them unthinkable at this stage.

I think its fair to point out that this is Pete's opinion and he is not quoting anyone from the AltEPG team!!

Whilst we have put a lot of work into this, I don't think anyone on the team would say they want the Tribune supplied EPG to close down if there was a chance of TiVo changing their mind!!
You know what, this is quite an astonishing accusation to make Pete, I know you've had a number of controversial threads on the tivocommunity over the years, but I seriously didn't think you would stoop to falsely quoting people so blatantly!?

You make some fair points otherwise, its true, when sales slackened and Mike carried on as a prominent poster on the tivocommunity, this clearly kept his tivo business in peoples minds more-so than tivoland.
To be honest, tivoland had already become a hobby business by then and having had to look elsewhere for more secure lines of income, even though I was aware of this, chasing diminishing sales was never something I was prepared to do.
Whilst you believe I'm some marketing guru, this project was more about supporting existing customers, many being family and friends first and for most, coupled with always have an interest in the system Oz and Canada had implemented since I used to send PAL tuners out to Darren in Australia many years ago.

Tivo's timing has possibly bore one benefit in that due to lack of support for tivoland over the last few years, I was very, very close to disposing of everything I had left because the storage space was more valuable than the potential income!
As you say, profits from drives are not going to make anyone rich, the onus on warranty falls on the supplier, so several months down the line, if that drive fails prematurely, I end up having to pay postage to return the drive to the supplier, factor in that administration, re-image it for the customer, pay another set of postage to send the drive back out again, yeah, its not really the gold mine some people perceive it to be

[Pete77]

I think its fair to point out that this is Pete's opinion and he is not quoting anyone from the AltEPG team!! Whilst we have put a lot of work into this, I don't think anyone on the team would say they want the Tribune supplied EPG to close down if there was a chance of TiVo changing their mind!!

You know what, this is quite an astonishing accusation to make Pete, I know you've had a number of controversial threads on the tivocommunity over the years, but I seriously didn't think you would stoop to falsely quoting people so blatantly!?

Dave.

I freely and fully admit that I was only speculating and I was assuming that if I had done all the hard work you have now done and upgraded my server to BT Infinity and done all the work you would appear to have done in building a site to register Tivo details and spent lots of time in correspondence with other AltEPG enthusiasts that I would probably feel horribly let down if Tivo changed their mind at the last moment. But I don't think I was actually falsely quoting you as you allege as it was surely clear that I was only merely speculating a little wildly on just how I might feel in your position if Tivo were suddenly to say that "after careful consideration of the many representations received from our loyal UK Tivo S1 users who live outside the Virgin Cable area we have decided to continue service to all Tivo Series 1 units in the UK for another three years until at least 1st June 2014. We and Virgin are hopeful that at the end of that time period Virgin will be in a position to deliver their television, internet and other multimedia services including the Virgin Tivo throughout the UK using new wireless and other technologies for extending the reach of the Virgin network".

But do you know what I don't think that is actually going to happen as whilst it would have happened with the Tivo founding fathers most of them are now long gone and a new breed of tougher thicker skinned Tivo corporate executive like Mr Danovitz are now in place at Tivo. Such people are not easily forced to deviate from their original business plan by something as trivial and unimportant to large modern corporate business planning as customer feedback. So all your own and other AltEPG member's efforts will I believe not be in vane and it is just my interest in the political (with a small p) dynamics of the situation that makes me wonder if Tivo could be forced to change their mind if they were to start getting enough flack on this issue form journalists back home. Also if it is Virgin who has insisted on the plug being pulled could cuddly old sweater wearing Sir Richard (who has been extremely keen to put his own name to the Virgin Tivo's brand significance when he clearly didn't have to) really stand up and admit that not only his Caribbean island but also 50% of the UK does not have any access to the Virgin Tivo.

You make some fair points otherwise, its true, when sales slackened and Mike carried on as a prominent poster on the tivocommunity, this clearly kept his tivo business in peoples minds more-so than tivoland.

I think its fair to say that despite being the original Tivo upgrade pioneer that you allowed first Steve and then Mike to come and steal part of your existing Tivo upgrade business away from you. This was probably for the very good reason that you had other more important and rewarding things to be doing at the time even though you always seemed to be the only man with a small mountain of never sold Tivos or returned under warranty Tivos somewhere that I am sure will increase significantly in capital value the day the AltEPG goes live and the Tribune EPG is no more.

At the end of the day both you and Steve (aka The Blind Lemon) appear to be far more similar in personality than I had previously realised (I have always seen him as being by far the most prima donnerish of the three main upgrade service owners especially with his stubborn refusal to ever accept that Mike could possibly be offering as good a service as him as he had entered the market place later than him as finally demonstrated in his refusal to give any links to Mike's site when he completely exited the Tivo upgrade business). I have personally always greatly respected and admired the technical knowledge and passion you have shown for the Tivo as a product but both you and Steve do seem to tend to over react in rather a big way when I have said something that at worst was only mildly critical. Whilst Mike to his credit has nearly always tolerated me on the forum even though he secretly probably finds me equally annoying. But Mike is a shrewd and savvy Tivo upgrade service retailer and he probably realises it is a mistake in business terms to fall out with any of the forum regulars.

Whilst you believe I'm some marketing guru, this project was more about supporting existing customers, many being family and friends first and for most, coupled with always have an interest in the system Oz and Canada had implemented since I used to send PAL tuners out to Darren in Australia many years ago.

I realise its only a product that you simply originally had a passion for as a lover of leading edge technology that you then saw a business angle in too. I always rather admired the fact that you could afford to be somewhat more laissez faire about your Tivo upgrade business compared to Steve who in his hayday left almost no stone unturned in the tivocommunity forum that might have led to another potential Tivo upgrade sale. Of course he also genuinely like to help people technically too although the fact that it was mainly a business seems to be demonstrated by his total and utter disappearance from the forum once he closed that business down.

Tivo's timing has possibly bore one benefit in that due to lack of support for tivoland over the last few years, I was very, very close to disposing of everything I had left because the storage space was more valuable than the potential income!

Indeed. I would imagine that the previous scrap only value of your large Tivo S1 mountain could very well move well in to three figures per unit (or even three figures beginning with a 2) once fitted with a suitable 500GB drive and the latest clutch of hacks.

As you say, profits from drives are not going to make anyone rich, the onus on warranty falls on the supplier, so several months down the line, if that drive fails prematurely, I end up having to pay postage to return the drive to the supplier, factor in that administration, re-image it for the customer, pay another set of postage to send the drive back out again, yeah, its not really the gold mine some people perceive it to be

Nonetheless we should not overlook the further potential profits from the sale of complete upgraded Tivo units that now come with a free Lifetime Subscription.

Dave I have every possible admiration for what you and the AltEPG guys have achieved and I apologise if I may have gone too far in my attempt to give some balance to posts by those who tried to claim that the new Tivo service was going to be six times better than before as opposed to the more likely reality of it being so nearly like the original service as to be by and large almost totally indistinguishable from it.